Monday, June 13, 2016

War is never the answer, Hitler and Stalin assure you

Count me out of the 'war is never the answer' mindset. I can't tell you when it's right to declare war, when violence on a state level is necessary or justified - at least I can't draw a firm, complete line. But I do realize that violence - even for a Christian - can become legitimate, even necessary, in some conditions. I don't think pacifism is a noble ideal which all should strive for but, alas, most just fall short of. I think pacifism is wrongheaded and, in the right conditions, actually immoral.

There's little argument here - it's more a statement than anything. But it's what I believe.

18 comments:

Son of Ya'Kov said...

Just because the Pope shouldn't antagonize the Muslims needlessly does not translate too we should not go to war with the Jihadists.

BTW we DIDN'T go to war with Stalin because the USSR got atomic weapons in 1949. MAD was such a war-killer. As for Hitler we declared war on him and Chamberlain was discredited but the Vatican still tried (even thought they knew it to be futile) to make peace and they where officially neutral during the war.

Son of Ya'Kov said...

War is the job of the State. The prudent choice to go to war rests with the State. the Church can provide the moral parameters for the choice. Caesar alone must weld the sword and make sure it is not in vain.

Crude said...

Just because the Pope shouldn't antagonize the Muslims needlessly does not translate too we should not go to war with the Jihadists.

Care to ask the Pope what he thinks about war? Or, for that matter, about saying anything that 'antagonizes the jihadists'?

War is the job of the State. The prudent choice to go to war rests with the State. the Church can provide the moral parameters for the choice. Caesar alone must weld the sword and make sure it is not in vain.

This post wasn't even about the Church. But you seem intent on pre-emptively defending the Church against all wrongdoing by removing its responsibilities entirely. Apparently it's the State, not the Church, which matters.

Son of Ya'Kov said...

>Care to ask the Pope what he thinks about war?

I would listen to his council then make up my own mind according to prudent judgement.


>Or, for that matter, about saying anything that 'antagonizes the jihadists'?

I would assume he wouldn't want to cause death. So he should stay out of it.

>This post wasn't even about the Church. But you seem intent on pre-emptively defending the Church against all wrongdoing by removing its responsibilities entirely.

Rather I provided context in anticipation of a polemic. i can prognosticate too Crude.

> Apparently it's the State, not the Church, which matters.

No the State acts in it's sphere and the Church in Her sphere. The State wages War. The Church prays for Peace.

Son of Ya'Kov said...

>Care to ask the Pope what he thinks about war?

Modern Popes are for the most part against war. John Paul II himself was against the invasion of Iraq. They don't in principle do war. You will never get a future Pope to call for a Crusade. Not gonna happen.

Crude said...

I would listen to his council then make up my own mind according to prudent judgement.

Rather I provided context in anticipation of a polemic. i can prognosticate too Crude.

You shouldn't - you're bad at it.

You will never get a future Pope to call for a Crusade. Not gonna happen.

I read a man's words and you call me a mindreader. But you can tell the future. Funny stuff.

The Church prays for peace, ignoring all those crusades. Which will totally never happen again, because modern popes were against some wars, so they shall be forever.

Funny stuff.

Son of Ya'Kov said...

>I read a man's words

So you say but when we try to discuss specific citations relevant to an event......


>and you call me a mindreader. But you can tell the future. Funny stuff.


That last bit is a good point. If the world lasts as long I don't know what the Pope in the year 6037AD will do when tranhumanist mutants invade the Canadian Empire from Space.

But the Popes are not for war and that is a good thing. Let Presidents be for war when it is needed. I am all for that.

Crude said...

But the Popes are not for war and that is a good thing.

Unless war is necessary and morally right.

Son of Ya'Kov said...

Going to war is a matter of prudent judgment not absolute moral certainty. A Just War may not be intrinsically evil but it is still by nature intrinsically evil and ought to be avoided if possible.

Crude said...

Sometimes, war and violence are not just justified, but it would be morally shameful to avoid them.

Son of Ya'Kov said...

>Sometimes, war and violence are not just justified, but it would be morally shameful to avoid them.

No it the public authority's job to make that determination & the Church's job to give the moral framework for it to make a prudent determination.

It's not the Pope's job to start wars or fan the flames of war. BTW the War is coming regardless. I want the Pope to pray to stop it and try to stop it and the President to wage it.

Son of Ya'Kov said...

Oh fuck me for an edit function.

"Just War may not be intrinsically evil but it is still by nature intrinsically evil and ought to be avoided if possible"

Should read

Just War may not be intrinsically evil but it is still by nature extrinsically evil and ought to be avoided if possible

malcolmthecynic said...

It's not the Pope's job to start wars or fan the flames of war.

Except, of course, for the very long period of time where it was.

But that doesn't count, right?

Crude said...

I'm not even calling for a freaking crusade here. I'm asking for criticisms. Ben defends the idea of never, ever, ever criticizing Islam because they may riot and if they do it's not THEIR fault, it's the fucking Pope's. I ask Ben what he'll do if proclaiming that Christ is risen will cause them to riot - protip, it fucking does - and he doesn't want to answer because it's apparently some kind of sophistical question, aka, he has no answer for it. Because we're not responsible for muslims who will riot at the slightest provocation, and neither is the Pope.

Son of Ya'Kov said...

Malcolm

>Except, of course, for the very long period of time where it was.

How did that work out for ya? When the Crusaders first took Jerusalem they burned a what? A Mosque?
No they burned a synagogue. It wasn't a success. The Sacking of Constantinople by the Crusaders, a Christian city? Take that Jihadists! Sure the Pope told them not to do it but they did it anyway.

So Pope Francis should repeat this "success" by calling for war? No, let Trump call for war I am right behind him.


Crude,

>. I'm asking for criticisms.

I already linked to some yet they where not good enough for you?

The Pope said what needed to be said & other then conclude you mean he should ratchet up the rhetoric
and go out of his way to antagonize the Muslims (regardless of the cost of human life) your call for "criticism"
is meaningless bullshit.

> Ben defends the idea of never, ever, ever criticizing Islam because they may riot and if they do it's not THEIR fault, it's the fucking Pope's.

Bullshit! Where did I say that?" Well? I don't think the Pope should go out of his way to antagonize them. Like Pius XII did with the Nazis. When the Jihadists are broken by our armies and the Muslim world is humbled by bombs then if we don't say anything unkind about their religion it will be out of charity not fear. talk to me then about being a dick to them. Depending on my moot I might be for it or against it.

Crude said...

I already linked to some yet they where not good enough for you?

No, they weren't. Because it was 'Pope condemns killing' and little else. Call me when he can actually bring himself to point out a flaw in Islam, rather than make excuses for it.

Bullshit! Where did I say that?" Well?

Repeatedly, hence your holding B16 responsible for the deaths of Christians at the hands of idiot rioting muslims.

When the Jihadists are broken by our armies and the Muslim world is humbled by bombs

That's not happening. The Pope says we should welcome them all into communities and also not bomb them or break their armies. In fact, he thinks that the whole problem is poverty and a lack of social justice. The real monsters are people who are against massive immigration.

malcolmthecynic said...

Ben,

How dare you criticize the Popes of the crusades! Since you're not a member of the clergy, as you've confidently told me, that's not allowed.

Anyway, if you don't believe the first crusade was justified, you don't believe in just wars at all. That some people in the war itself acted badly does zero to diminish that.

Crude said...

Malcolm,

I'm putting Ben in the time-out corner for a while, as my tolerance for having 20+ comments a day where I'm called diabolical and am generally chimped out at has hit a limit. I'm sure he can hit your blog to explain, at length, why you're possessed by the devil or something.